I have a very special guest today, Persia Woolley, author of the acclaimed trilogy about the fabled Guinevere, among others. Welcome, Persia. I’ve wanted to interview you for a long time, and I’m delighted that we were finally able to get together. So…let’s get started.
Your Guinevere books were originally published in 1987, ’90 and 91. How is it that they are being re-issued now?
It seems that as the big traditional houses focus more and more on blockbuster and celebrity books, some savvy publishers are buying ‘back-list’ titles–good works by mid-list authors the big companies are no longer interested in. Sourcebooks is one such publisher; they read my Guinevere Trilogy and set out to find me. At first I wasn’t much interested, but a few phone calls to friends inside the industry confirmed that Sourcebooks are a very progressive firm, geared to 21st Century challenges and highly respected for it. The result is that Child of the Northern Spring came out in November of 2010 and both Queen of the Summer Stars and Guinevere–the Legend in Autumn will be issued in 2011.
How does it feel to see them out in the world again?
Wonderful. Back in the ’80’s and ’90’s they were overshadowed by Mists of Avalon so even though I tried to make it clear that I don’t write fantasy or woman’s romance, the original publisher marketed them that way and the mainstream audience wasn’t even alerted to their presence. Sourcebooks is touting them as Historical Fiction so they’re reaching the audience they were intended for.
They were originally all three Book of the Month Club alternates and were translated into seven languages. Sometimes I get posts from strangers on FaceBook telling me how much they loved them back 20 years ago, often saying they read and re-read them over and over until they fell apart in their hands. That sort of contact out of the blue is immensely gratifying.
You became a journalist in 1970 and had two non-fiction books published by 1980. What was it that drew you to historical fiction at that point and why Guinevere? Were the Arthurian stories favorites from childhood?
No, not at all. I was an only child born to a brilliant booklover who wasn’t much interested in motherhood. She tried hard to teach me to read from the age of four on, but I refused to comply, preferring to tell myself stories that I made up on my own. Later, when Mom became a librarian, she’d push different works at me, and I always pushed them back. As a result, I didn’t have a child’s take on the Arthurian stories at all, and was in my 20’s when the musical Camelot brought them to my attention.
After that I read the standards–White’s Once and Future King, Sutcliff’s Sword at Sunset and Mary Stewart’s Merlin Trilogy. In the mid ’70’s my husband and I went to Britain for a month and on a whim decided to look up various Arthurian sites. I have always believed a novelist should have something new to say, either in content or viewpoint or structure. But while I thought it would be fun to do something with the Camelot story, I couldn’t see how to catch hold of it. And I was still in ‘non-fiction mode,’ so to speak.
Then after the divorce, it was clearly time to try my hand on a novel–and that’s when it dawned on me that no one (at that time) had told the tales from Guinevere’s point of view. Once ‘the penny dropped’ I lived, ate, slept and dreamt The Matter of Britain, taking a half-time job so as to have mornings and evenings free for research and writing. I even stopped the newspaper, didn’t watch TV, said no to all coffee dates and socializing, and managed to save enough money to get myself to Britain twice on research trips. I was 45 at the time and I think it was equal parts of desperation and determination that drove me on, plus a growing love for the characters.
You have said you are proud to be a euhemerist. Can you explain that for us?
A euhemerist believes that legends, no matter how fanciful, are actually rooted in reality–that real people, living in real time, did things that were real and reasonable for their circumstances which have been embroidered over the centuries into fanciful myths. Among novelists Mary Renault was the first one that I ran across, and I still admire her Theseus books, The King Must Die and The Bull from the Sea. The blend of disciplined historical accuracy and the story-teller’s imagination appeals strongly to me, and was the approach I decided to use.
The first step was to determine when and where the legend started. Scholars agree that the prototype of Arthur would have lived sometime between 450 A.D. when memory of the Roman Empire was fading away and 550 A.D. when the Saxon invaders succeeded in driving the surviving Romano-Celts into the mountains of what we now call Wales. This fits with the tradition that the Saxons were Arthur’s great enemy and that he represented the last flicker of civilization–a golden moment of good governance–trying to fend off the onslaught of the barbarians and ensuing Dark Ages.
It also meant no knights in gleaming armor or settings in fancy castles. Gwen’s people would have been living in Roman relics and Celtic roundhouses, mud huts and stone brocks; Mediterranean villas and floating crannogs. And since I vastly prefer the triumph of the human spirit to the veils of fantasy that so often attach themselves to this story, I was going to have to find the humor, gallantry, courage, sorrow and perseverance within the characters to bring this shining story to life in such a potentially dreary setting.
What kind of research was involved?
Lots! All told the research and writing of the three books involved a total of eleven years and four research trips to Britain. Remember, this was before the Net, so my main sources were books, articles, a few documentaries and various meetings with Arthurian scholars. When in Britain I stayed in hostels and carried everything on my back except for the hundreds of books and pamphlets I bought and immediately sent home. I crawled all over Celtic and Roman ruins and prowled through numerous small, local museums exploring all the sites I used in the books. Some were traditional, such as Tintagel and Winchester, while others were locales that I found on my own which fit within the needs of my story.
You certainly broke with tradition when you made Guinevere a homely northern pagan girl. Why was that?
Approaching the story as real history means bringing your own common sense to it. In the legend she is said to be a convent-raised daughter of the south. But the newly crowned King was having trouble with his northern barons, most of whom had not been as Romanized as their southern counterparts. So the first thing young Arthur has to do is put down a civil war and tame those northerners–and any historian will point out that you marry a bride from your most recently vanquished enemy to solidify your power.
I made her think of herself as homely so that she wouldn’t be spoiled by the arrogance most great beauties have. And I killed off her mother at an early age so Gwen would have years of unsupervised freedom in which to develop her horsemanship, bravery and political understanding from her father.
Also, I wanted her to be an outsider. As such she encounters Arthur’s world with fresh eyes–everything from new foods to two wheeled carriages, strange architecture and the potential use of stirrups catch her attention, broadening her horizons and helping to create a whole world for the reader.
Plus making her a northerner brings in early encounters with Gawain and family, as well as the remnants of the druids. And what more logical place for the Lady of the Lake’s stronghold to be in than the Lake District, both for it’s name connection and the fact that historically it was easily defended and often used as a place to hide from the world’s scrutiny. By placing the Academy there, both Vivian and Morgan would have been known to Gwen long before she’d even heard of Arthur.
How much trouble did you have weaving historical facts into the mythic story?
Actually, not much at all. I think my journalism background helped in that I love ferreting out facts and side-issues and I tend to remember tons of trivia. Setting the story in 500 A.D. gave me a chance to explore the different cultures involved; the archaeology, history and religion of the Celts, the Romano-Britons and the Saxons, and see how they interacted. And since Gwen would have been co-ruler, she’d have been involved in the question of laws and military developments as well being friend and mother-confessor to the Companions of the Round Table itself. So I kept all of those things in mind during my research. I also promised myself I wouldn’t fudge on my accuracy; if my investigation proved some idea I had wouldn’t have been possible, I’d find a new idea.
For instance, Arthur and his men are always portrayed as mounted warriors, but stirrups hadn’t been brought to the West yet, so I had to figure out how I could logically introduce them in a manner that wouldn’t contradict the archaeological record–metal stirrups have never been found that early in Britain.
There is, however, a town named Ribchester which grew up not far from Hadrian’s Wall where retired Legionnaires went to live–most already had wives and families in such settlements, and it meant they stayed in touch with friends and comrades from their military service. Those early vets in Ribchester had mostly come from Sarmatia, a Roman Province which is depicted as having been conquered by Trajan in the early second century. And among the carvings on Trajan’s Column are a contingent of Sarmatian soldiers riding horses and carrying long lances. So it is plausible that the descendants of those Sarmatian Legionnaires would have kept up their practice of horsemanship, with or without stirrups. (It is not totally clear on the Column if any of them are using stirrups, but lances would be awfully hard to control without having stirrups in which to brace your feet.)
Ribchester was on Gwen’s way south to be married, so I knew we’d be stopping over and she’d see up-close what horsemanship could become with the use of stirrups. I made them of leather and rope, both because they would be easier to construct than iron stirrups would be, and because they would have disintegrated by the time modern archaeologists would be looking for them.
Then I encountered an archaeological report of a Greek optometrist who had died in the north of England, and it was quite possible that he had brought with him a young Arab boy as a slave. Here was a chance to introduce Palomides who is always portrayed in the legend as a foreigner–in the Middle Ages he is specifically a Muslim, no doubt included as an example of how ecumenical Arthur’s court was. So all I needed for my story was to get him to Ribchester, where the kids were already accomplished horsemen at an early age.
Those particular things came together gradually–I didn’t begin writing Child until I was 3 1/2 years into my research. And some touches didn’t drop into place until I was actually typing out the story and they appeared on the screen. (I sometimes feel like a reporter chronicling what my characters are doing as I know where they are at the beginning of a scene and where they need to be at the end, but how they get there is up to them…I just keep watching and listening, and writing it down.)
What touched you most in the Guinevere story and what are your dreams for the Trilogy, now that it’s being re-issued?
I was so tired of seeing Arthur’s queen presented as a two-dimensional caricature–the beautiful but faithless wife, the spoiled twit who ruins the Round Table because she can’t make up her mind between two men–when in the structure of the legends she is clearly Arthur’s co-equal, respected and even loved by the people and most of the courtiers. In the fourteenth century she was known as Guinevere the Gay, when ‘gay’ denoted joyousness, full of good cheer and the bounty of springtime.
But with the French introduction of Lancelot and the Christianizing of the legend the church fathers had to find appropriate punishments for powerful women, so they turned Morgan into a witch and Guinevere into a sniveling sinner who repents heavily at the end. All of which made her an easy mark for the Victorians who found in her a handy scapegoat on whom to blame the demise of Camelot.
Yet when you look at what she experiences–married into one of the most conflicted families in literature, kidnapped, raped, unable to have children, becoming step-mother to Arthur’s son and understanding both man and child, yet being unable to bridge the gulf between them–these are things that many modern women deal with today, in varying degrees. Add to that loving (and being loved by) two heroic men and you’ve got the portrait of a most remarkable woman. Obviously I felt there was much to be said for her, and was more than happy to give her a voice.
As to the future, the very fact that Child is now available as an e-book broadens the audience. And I’m in the process of compiling an annotated edition as I would like to see The Guinevere Trilogy included in the recommended reading for Arthurian literature studies in colleges. The fact that I stayed true to the cannon at the same time presenting reasonable psychological portraits of these archetypical figures is something I’m very proud of, and hope it gets recognized in the future.
Do you foresee writing more books in the Arthurian mode?
No, much as I love it, I’ve turned my attention to the other great iconic tale that shaped our culture, the Trojan War. I’m about six years into my research on that, though I took out a couple of years to write “Ophelia’s Tale” which is presently looking for an agent. As with Guinevere, I did a great deal of research and stayed absolutely within the frame of Shakespeare’s play, but you’ll never look at Hamlet the same way again.
In retrospect I’ve achieved what I wanted to with Guinevere; found a career which satisfies my reporter’s love of research and honed my skill as a story teller, at the same time I’ve helped to restore the much vilified queen to the stature she used to have and I think fully deserves. All told, that feels pretty good.
Persia, this was a wonderful interview. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. I am already eager to see what you’ll do with the legend of Troy. Please come back anytime to talk about it–or any other subject that comes to your mind.
December 9, 2010
I apologize to all for the problems with margins, etc, on this interview. Melusine, my evil computer, has stopped merely visiting the Dark Side and has taken up permanent residence there. She totally ignored my wishes and got very creative with Persia’s interview. I was so pleased with Sourcebooks for republishing Legacy. But we are truly in their debt for making Persia’s trilogy available to new readers. And now Melusine is threatening some sort of a major meltdown, so I am signing off while I still can.
Excellent! I’ve had that trilogy on my list for a long time, but have been stopped by other books and the problem of finding them. If they’re being re-issued, it’ll be easier to get them. A very good and informative interview, and I can’t wait to see what happens with Troy.
Today, Malcolm IV ‘the Maiden’ of Scotland, who was knighted by Henry II at the siege of Toulouse died.
I just counted all the books in my ‘To Be Read’ pile and I am up to 40. Let’s see if I can get it to 50 by Christmas :). I can’t believe I have never heard of these books! For a long time I was obsessed by the Arthurian legend and read everything I could. My favourites are The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley and the Pendragon’s Banner series by Helen Hollick. Looks like I have got a few more to read!
Fantastic interview! I was especially intrigued to learn of Ms. Wooley’s euhemerism. I have always felt that many of our fantasy tales and myths have some kernel of truth to them. I teach college level mythology and it can be really fun to see how myths might be based in reality and to see the different perspectives my students bring to the discussion. I can’t wait to reread this series. I loved it when it was first released and know I’ll fall in love with it again. Thanks, Sharon and Persia!
Great interview! I loved the Guinevere books. Learning of her research, I now understand why.
Now, I’m looking forward to the Trojan War stories. Adele Geras wrote two YA books from the women’s points of view. I always enjoy seeing the traditional stories from a new perspective.
Thank you, Sharon and Persia.
I read these books when they first came out and loved them. Unfortunately, I never owned them. Now I’ve got a chance to have them to reread whenever I wish. Thanks to Sharon and Persia for the great interview.
Koby, your Mossad has gotten what may be the most eye-opening, perverse compliment ever. The governor of an Egyptian resort that has been plagued by a series of gruesome shark attacks is suggesting that the Mossad is behind it, sending a shark to attack tourists and hurt the Egyptian tourism industry. The Mossad trains sharks? Wow, I’m impressed. I always figured sharks were right up there with cats when it comes to wanting to please people. Seriously, what can someone say about this? Except that the governor is not alone in his insanity, for someone else suggested Mossad was using GPS devices to get the shark into Egyptian waters.
Well, time then that Egypt brings out the Scorpion King and his poisonous minions to deal with those sharks. 😀
My Lovly Daughter, Asks?…Dad,.. How Come Were, of a Dark Complection?. I Say Well,. The Romans Were in :Geordie -Land” Two thousand Years Ago?……And the Had Syrian Regiments?….On the Wall?,…Also The Spanish,.. Were Shipwrecked off our northern-coasts(Scared to Go Back to Spain?)….Work it Out!……Sharon You Would be Great At Arthur-Stories.
A tragic day in Welsh history–the death on December 11, 1272, of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, known as Ein Llyw Olaf–Our Last Leader.
Maybe if Ihad 9 lives like a cat, James!
Apologies, for it was obviously 1282. I typed it in a hurry and didn’t reread, then compounded the error by copying and pasting it to my Facebook sites and here. That’ll teach me. But I’m an owl, not a lark, and do not function well in the morning hours.
Also, Robert de Ros who was one of the 25 sureties to the Magna Carta died today, Sharon.
As for the Mossad… who do you think murdered Al-Afdal Shahanshah, Caliph of Egypt in 1121, today? I’ll give you a hint: it wasn’t the Batinis (Hashshashin)…
A very sad day indeed, Sharon. Two years ago, I was at the ruins of Abbey Cwm Hir, and said a little prayer for Llywelyn at what is believed to be his final resting place.
Dave
Today, Geoffrey, Archbishop of York and bastard son of Henry II died.
Thanks, Koby–Geoffrey fell right through my net! But don’t keep us in suspense; tell us more about the Caliph of Egypt’s death. (I assume a shark wasn’t involved?”
Dave, every time I’ve been at Cwm Hir,I’ve found flowers on his memorial stone. That is remarkable since, as you know, it is out of the way, well off the beaten track.
Off the beaten track is putting it mildly. As memory serves, you have to climb down a steep slope. And, it was nice to see Y Ddraig Goch flying from a flag post there as well. I also remember seeing the memorial stone near Builth Wells, near the spot where he was killed. Like you said there’s always flowers there, and there was a well near by too.
Dave
Today, Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, who married Isabella of England (John’s daughter) died, as well as Maimonides (though we’ll only count that in about two weeks, on the Hebrew date).
As for Al Afdal, “He was murdered during Eid ul-Adha in 1121; according to Ibn al-Qalanisi, “it was asserted that the Batinis (Hashshashin) were responsible for his assassination, but this statement is not true. On the contrary it is an empty pretence and an insubstantial calumny.” The real cause was the growing boldness of the caliph al-Amir Bi-Ahkamillah, who had succeeded al-Musta’li in 1101, and his resentment of al-Afdal’s control.”
Thanks for the reminder about Frederick, Koby. He was undeniably a remarkable man, but not one of my favorites; he treated his wives heartlessly. I do greatly admire his mother, though. Constance de Hauteville was the Queen of Sicily in her own right, wed to one of history’s least sympathetic figures, Heinrich von Hohenstaufen, the Holy Roman Emperor who held Richard for ransom in defiance of all the tenets of Church law. Constance did not marry until she was 30; we do not know why. She did not become pregnant until she was 40 and she knew there would be widespread suspicion that the baby was not hers in light of her age and “barren” marriage. So she set up a tent in the center of town, invited all of the local matrons to come in and watch as she gave birth to Frederick. A gutsy lady. It still did not stop Frederick’s enemies from later casting doubts on his birth, but there is no doubt that Constance’s bold action served her son very well.
Sharon, I just love reading your blog. When I first started reading it, I would be disappointed when I saw that the blog entry was an author interview, b/c I would much rather hear what you had to say about your books and your work.
But then I started reading the interviews, and reading the books that the authors had written and now I really look forward to the author interviews. Pretty much every author you’ve interviewed, I’ve loved their books. Probably my favorite discoveries from your blog have been Michelle Moran and Laurel Corona. And I’m looking forward to getting to know Persia Woolley’s books now too!
I am so glad to know this, Janna. It must seem at times as if I’m in a conspiracy to drag all of my readers into book bankruptcy with me! As that bumper sticker goes, So many books, so little time.
I am happy to report that Academic Travel Abroad, Inc is in the final stages of putting the “tour package” together. I hope to be able to post the itinerary soon, complete with dates, prices, etc. Naturally I have nothing to do with that, as I am an employee of the agency for purposes of the trip. I have been very impressed with them so far; they are so professional and experienced in such tours, and they have been very receptive to my suggestions about the places we should visit. It is looking more and more as if it will take place in early June, beginning in Paris, and we’ll be visiting some wonderful sites, including Fontevrault (where we hope to stay at the Abbaye Royale), Poitiers, Chinon, Angers, and Mont St Michel. I’m very excited about this. A free trip to France is always nice, of course! But I am really looking forward to meeting some of the readers I’ve come to know through Facebook and my blog, and it should be great fun to travel around to Eleanor’s old haunts with people who share my passion for the Angevins, surely history’s most dysfunctional medieval family.
Yeah, and I wonder why the pope didn’t excommunicate Heinrich for that. The popes were usually ready enough to exccommunicate emperors. 😉 Well, I may find out what political reasons were behind that; I’m working on a series of blogposts about Holy Roman Emperors. They’re a bit over the place, though: I have one about Heinrich IV (who got excommunicated 4 times) and two about Otto IV, Richard’s nephew (who also managed to get excommunicated) so far. I must admit I have a soft spot for the Welfen and that makes me not a Friedrich II fan. 🙂
You are right, Gabriele; he should have been excommunicated. The Pope did spear the “lesser fish, ” the Duke of Austria, but he let the big shark, Heinrich, wiggle through the net. He was quite elderly, though, well into his 80’s by then, and may not have had the backbone to take on the Holy Roman Emperor. Is your blog about Otto up? I’d love to read that. And do consider doing one about Heinrich.
Sharon,
I just finished watching your favorite movie, Becket. Though I’ve seen it before, I always enjoy it.
Dave
Today, the Hashshashin stronghold at Alamut was captured and destroyed by Hulagu Khan and his mongol horde. While not the Syrian part of the organization, which had the Old Man of the Mountain and tried to kill Salah-ad-Din, this was still the place where the group was founded.
As for Frederick. Sharon, any man who managed to be king of Germany, Italy, Burgundy, Sicily and Jerusalem must have been remarkable. To say nothing of his going on Crusade while excommunicated, and still managing to return Jerusalem, Nazareth, and Bethlehem to the Kingdom of Jerusalem through negotiation!
I never disputed the fact that he was extraordinary, Koby. I just don’t like him much!
Dave, I assume you said that with tongue tucked firmly in cheek. It’s funny, I am a HUGE Burton and O’Toole fan, but while I could happily suspend disbelief to enjoy Lion in Winter again and again, I’ve never been able to do that for Becket, which had me gnashing my teeth a la Braveheart and Kingdom of Heaven.
Sharon, here is the first, introductory post about Otto IV I wrote last year, and here is one focussing on Otto and Archbishop Adaöbert of Magdeburg.
My blog is a mix of Roman and Medieaval history, mostly with illustrations (photos from my travels), focussing on Germany and the UK. I got fun stuff from all over the place: from Hadrian’s Wall to the Varus battle, from Welsh princes to Scottish clan feuds, from York Minster to Speyer Cathedral, from Caernarfon Castle to the Harzburg, and a bunch of German kings. 🙂 And there are still tons of photos in my archives for more posts.
My comment is awaiting moderation because it includes links. You’ll have to fish it out of your email, I guess. 😉
Sharon,
Guilty as charged. I know you’re a stickler for historical accuracy. I just couldn’t resist muddying the waters.
Dave
And today, Henry VI (VII) of England was crowned King of France in Notre Dame de Paris.
The birthday of a sad queen–on December 16, 1485, Katherine of Aragon first saw the light of day. Of course all of Henry VIII’s queens could qualify for the adjective “sad,” couldn’t they? Even Anne of Cleaves must have had a few bad moments before she got Henry to accept her as a dear “sister.” (I seem to remember reading of a Swedish queen who parried Henry’s interest in her by pointing out that she had only one head.) Anne Boleyn brought some of her troubles on herself, and Jane Seymour was lucky enough to die before Henry could tire of her. So that leaves Katherine of Aragon, little Katherine Howard, and Katherine Parr in the running for Queen of Misery. My vote would be for Katherine Howard, for she was so in over her head, a little minnow swimming with the sharks. Agree? Disagree? Don’t care? I don’t normally invite the Tudors to invade our Plantagenet space; guess I’m being influenced by Legacy, which I am currently rereading. If anyone has not read it yet, I highly recommend it. It has much to offer–great writing, extensive research, and some truly unforgettable characters, even the minor ones. Her Elizabeth will linger in your mind long after the book is done.
Thanks for posting the link, Gayle. I knew you were out to cause trouble, Dave 🙂 Thanks, again, for another historical nugget, Koby. I can’t count the times you’ve given me something to post on Facebook.
Gayle? I’ve seen a number of interesting variants of my name, but that tops all of them. 😀
I have to agree with you about Katharine. The more I read about here, in Norah Loft’s For A King’s Pleasure, CW Gortner’s Last Queen, and in Legacy and other places, the more I realized that this was a much more complex person than the dark and gloomy religious shadow walking around the court.
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